>slow>incredibly poorly balanced>ugly
Underage thread
but enough about your mother
>>10895281OP has 56 seconds of playtime with VF1, for a generous estimate
>>10895294It's just incredibly poorly balanced. There's no fixing this either.
You're a retard. Tactics Ogre is actually poorly balanced. Virtua Fighter was early 3d done right. It is in fact pretty dated nowadays though.Retard OP
OP actually hasn’t played it, but he did watch a YouTube about it
>>10895281>>slownon criticism, "speed" in fighting games is a matter of preference>>incredibly poorly balancedExpand on this point. MvC2 and SF3rd Strike are also poorly balanced games, still beloved. Balance is not the end all of fighters.>>uglynot ugly in its contemporary context
>>10895308>Virtua Fighter was early 3d done right.No, that was Tekken.>>10895318>d-don't like this game? w-well you never played itThat's a weird cope, I see you coping it in many threads, too. There aren't many of us here so it's easy to notice you're coping the same way in every thread.
>>10895325No, Tekken popularized it
>>10895325slow boards encourage schizophrenic ideation, apparently
>>10895325>No, that was Tekken.you can't even side step in Tekken 1 you fake fan
OP is just being a retard because I said a game was poorly balanced in another thread. He's just coping that his shitty ass Matsuno game isn't as good as he thinks it is. He probably doesn't even care about Virtua Fighter
>>10895331>you can't even side step in Tekken 1So? Tekken 2 is when 3D fighting games finally started to become fun anyway.
>>10895325>No, that was Tekken. Literally said no one ever. Even Tekken fans admit early VF supremacy. If anyone says that early Tekken was better, he is an obvious falseflagger baiting for a flamewar.
King is broken in Tekken 1 too nah OP you just exposed yourself get fucked you fake fan fraud.
How did we end up with a proxy bait thread pitting a SRPG against a 3D fighter
>>10895337>Even Tekken fans admit early VF supremacy.No they don't. You don't get to just invent some consensus in your mind and pretend it's real.
>>10895343console warring is allowed against everything non-nintendo.
>>10895339And Gon is "broken" too, every game has balance nitpicks after many years.
>>10895336Tekken 2 doesn't have true side stepping. Only some characters had a move that worked as an alternative but no real side stepping. Exposed again as a fake fan.>>10895345Why believe you? You're a freaking fraud dude. You don't know jak about Tekken, Tekken fans, Virtua Fighter, or anything.
>>10895354>it takes years for people to figure out the small character is brokenNope every true gamer knows midgets are too strong. Exposed again!
>>10895365>too strongSounds like you've got a skill issue. Beating Gon or Dr. B is easy... if you're good.
>>10895281Because it was the first fully 3D fighting game OP. As with every early 3D game, if you want better, you'll have to go for a later title.
23 posts of OP being a faggot
>>10895378>ad hominem fuckin' pwned
>>10895382>it was the first fully 3D fighting game OPwrong
>>10895382Why does being 3D matter to the mechanics of a fighting game?
It impressed people with its 3D technology at the time. Gameplay wise people were more interested in the sequels.
This game absolutely lit up arcades when it came out. It was the coolest shit ever. I still really like the flat shading, the use of color, the music. And it’s disingenuous to claim that it was ever slow.
The art direction in Tekken is leagues better than Virtua Fighter.
It won’t work
used to play the PC port of this and Toshinden back in the day
>>10895546This was the 90s, people assumed that 3D = better, and more importantly it looked stunning for the time.Compare it to SSF2 and the difference is night and day even though they came out a month apart.
>>10895345Tekken 1-2-3 are widely considered to be ripoffs (and improvements) of VF1-2-3 respectively - by people who actually played both.
>>10895581>The art direction in Tekken is leagues better than Virtua Fighter.
>>10895619No they're not. People who played both admit they're different in nearly every way other than both being 3D fighters.
>>10895325Even the Tekken devs pretty much shit on it in interviews until 3, which wasn't around until 1997Virtua fighter 3 arcade looked like alien technology in 1996, best looking game in the world. Sega just fucked up with home ports and namco are their lunch
>>10895723>Even the Tekken devs pretty much shit on it in interviews until 3Really? Got a couple examples handy?
>>10895723>Virtua fighter 3 arcade looked like alien technology in 1996PC master race was playing Quake on their Voodoo Graphics cards in 1996. That's when PCs functionally overtook arcade games in all areas. Fully custom limited run 3D couldn't compete with the PC market. It wasn't more than 2-3 years after that that every PC came with a 3D accelerator which competed with or obliterated any arcade system.By 1997 people were playing Virtua Fighter on their home PCs ONLINE and with more powerful 3D hardware. It's one of the reasons Sega died, they decided after all this to throw another HUGE MOUNTAIN of money at another custom limited-run 3D getup.
>>108952813D graphics were a new thing and kids were curious. Now you know. Kys before making this same thread again.
>>10895828>By 1997 people were playing Virtua Fighter on their home PCs ONLINEyeah the 3 people who bought VF2 PC and actually tried the online play through HEAT.net
>>10895647Harada himself has said that the guiding philosophy of Tekken in the 90s was to rip off whatever VF did lolyou don't know shit
>>10895281vf1 plays like shit but you have to understand how ground breaking an actual 3d fighting game was.the arcades for most people were the first time they ever saw 3d.fighting games were just street fighter clones and this showed they could be something else entirely.
there ya go
I have a healthy respect and appreciation for the VF games but I have never particularly liked them. But as a caveat I've also never been good at them. Tekken on the other hand I've loved since the very first one. In fact I feel like I'm the only person around who has a big soft spot for Tekken 1. To Tekken's credit though, I have loved this series since the mid 90s and have only recently started trying to play it seriously against other people. When I was a kid I was just playing it with my dad and against the CPU. I would welcome the chance for a big new serious Virtua Fighter. I think it could do well, probably falling squarely below the huge impacts of the recent SF and Tekken games but more popular than something like Garou 2 is going to be.
>>10895281Yeah Sega games were never very good
>>10895816https://shmuplations.com/tekken/
>>10895828Quake looks like utter shit compared to vf3
>>10896174I also liked Tekken 1, but I had zero way to play vf beyond it being an arcade game people mostly put a few quarters into for the sake of novelty vs people playing sf2 with pride.I had some fighting game friends that had played vf2 religiously on a Saturn for a few years and I'm sure I would have been a vf guy if I'd been around a couple of years earlier with their group
>>10895281>Slow>Fights end in less than a minuteUh?
>>10896216yeah I'm about in the same boat. If I was two or three years older than I was I probably would've had more formative experiences with VF, vs coming to it much later.
>>10895889>changing the topic nowI accept your concession.
I was there in 1993, playing this at the arcade when it was new.You have no idea.
The entire game revolves around footsies. You just keep poking at each other to try to get your opponent to drop their guard, because one combo will usually end the match. It's EXTREMELY technical and high-stress. I can understand why a lot of people prefer flashier, easier to get into games like Tekken.
>>10896403Accept my penis in your vagina.
>>10895281Saturn port is awful. 32x port was great and has a widescreen option.
>>10895281It was one of the first 3D fighting games. Also VF2 is better.
>>10895642>split fritzl's hair>instantly recognizable as heihachigood luck doing this sort of thing with any virtua sharter character
>>10896552Every VF character is immediately recognizable because they're all such strong archetypes, like the original SFII characters.
>>10896572They're archetypes for sure, but they lack the character that SF's cast has. They may be recognizable but only because their designs are so weak and generic. Everyone is just the generic version of whatever archetype they represent. Kage is just a ninja. Jeffry is just a fat guy. Pai is just a Chinese lady. So if you saw a line up of fighting game characters and there's some dude with zero personality like Wolf you'd instinctively know it's from VF, but that's not a good thing.
>>10896589>just a ninja>just a Chinese ladyRyu is just a guy in a white gi. Honda is just a sumo wrestler. Boxer is just a boxer. Zangief is just a wrestler. But they’re the versions of those things created for SF2, so you know them. Same for VF, but I’m assuming you’re less familiar with VF. >just a fat guy>dude with zero personality Perhaps you should stop talking now.
Tekken was made by ex Virtua Fighter devs. It was also designed to be cheaper so arcades would pick it over VF.
>>10895828I dunno anon quake guy looks worse than super mario's model let alone a VF one
>>10895828>PC master race was playing Quake on their Voodoo Graphics cardsI bought Quake 1 new and returned it the next day because it's such a bad game in terms of gameplay, story, art direction, and muddy graphics. I know it's just a bad tech demo, but they could have made it better. Swapped it for Duke Nukem 3D at Electronics Boutique and had way more fun playing that on my voodoo card.
>>10896589The reason VF has simple characters is because a lot of them were created to be run on more primitive hardware, so they had to be simple. Virtua Fighter's never removed a single character from its roster (except Taka Arashi, who came back one game later) so the characters with simple designs are all still around.Also>just a ninja>just a chinese ladyDo you really want to play this game? King's just Tiger Mask, Nina's just Sarah, Law is just Bruce Lee, Tekken literally has a character just named "Bear" who is just a bear.
>>10896835>Tekken literally has a character just named "Bear" who is just a bear.o rly? Must be related to Kumachan from Fighter's Megamix! I'm happy to have all these goofy characters in different franchises.
>>10896865
>>10896798
>>10896875Did it just shit on the wall?
>>10896140Here's an old Die Hard Game Fan article with Siba/ Shiba in it. Probably even from the same build of the game., The first time I ever played Virtua Fighter 1 was at a 7/11, which had the model 1 coin op machine. I would put quite a bit of time into the game. I never had it for the Saturn, but I did play Remix quite a bit. I also really wanted the 32x port back in the day. It was a good attempt at a 3D fighting game from AM2. But I feel like Virtua Fighter 2 is a better all around game. Virtua Fighter 2 runs at 60fps, while the first game is only 30. Which does change the feel of the game. The sequel always felt less ridged than the first one.
>>10895292/thread
>>10896140>>10897120>>10897120>Probably even from the same build of the game.,Looking at the screenshots, these are not from the same build, as the character select menu is rearranged differently, and the characters have different names. As the Game Fan article sates, Virtua Fighter was released around the same time as Super Street Fighter II Turbo and Mortal Kombat 3 for reference. Yeah, you can find examples of 3D fighting games that existed before Virtua Fighter, like 3D boxing games, but I think Virtua Fighter was the first actual 3D fighting game that tried to mimic the look and feel of a Street Fighter 2 clone. But it does away with things like fire balls and other outlandish attacks for something that tried to be more grounded. Street Fighter 2 and later Mortal Kombat were really big money makers in the arcade space, that so many devs were jumping on board with the fighting game craze. I think Sega wanted to be the first to get the ball rolling on the 3D fighting craze that would inevitably happen. I think Sega had it planned from the start to release Virtua Fighter in a wave of sequels. Like, they knew a Virtua Fighter 2 would follow VF1. They used VF1 to refine and playtest the formula. Tekken was created by a former AM2 staffer who worked on VF1. Namco had to compete directly with Sega in the arcades, like they usually did. Battle Arena Toshienden was released before Tekken, and is the first 3D fighting game released on the PS1. But Battle Arena Toshienden created its own sub genre of weapon based arena fighters. Like Soul Blade/ Soul Calibur for example. Also Sega's Last Bronx was a Battle Arena clone.
Polygon fighting game with cool 90's 3D effects and no hadoukens or "chi" bullshit. Just punches, kicks, blocks, and counters.
>>10895297Git gud, stop button mashing
>>10896735Yeah, just look at the vf3 arcade gameplay demo sometime. Cloth physics and material work that makes it look like Jacky is wearing leather and the chinese characters are wearing silk etc. all in 1996 at 60 fps. Plus 3D animation work that was also basically peerless
>>10895281>>uglyYou had to be there. If you're looking through the lens of advancements that came later, you're never going to get it.This one simple fact is the ultimate and undeniable filter that zoomers will never bypass.
>>10895828Name a fucking PC game that looked as good as SCUD Race at the time it released.
>>10895281>ITT: VFshills coping about their favorite ugly tech demo they have never touched
>>10896219That's because the timer is shorter
>>10896572Such strong archetypes as>Generic kung-fu man>Generic blond American kung-fu man in red>Generic Chinese girl>Zero Suit Samus
I sure do love the realistic... uh... well the cast are at least memorable. There's>Kung-Fu Man>Chinese Girl>Tao Pai Pai>Native Stereotype>Big Angry Black Guy>Ninja>Zero Suit Samus from Dead or Alive 5>American Kung-Fu Man>Old Guy>Bratty Twink>Yamato Nadeshiko>Sumo>Monk>Zero Suit Samus but with a tan and painted-on abs>Playboy character so generic even his name is>Blue edgelord>Cute Girl>Rey Mysterio>Red Edgelord>Naked Chrome Lady
>>10897582>>10897603I genuinely can't tell whether these posts are talking about VF or Tekken.
>>10895297Balance is a cope for people who suck at video games.
>>10897603Shun di is pretty memorableBut that's about it
>>10896589>lack character>zero personalityI can tell you've never played any of the VF games. The first game I've ever owned on the Sega Saturn was Virtua Fighter 2, I was blown away by the graphics, it had a great soundtrack and I loved that the characters spoke after winning a match("Better run home to momma now" - Sarah). Virtua Fighter has evolved into a solid fighting game franchise over the years.
>>10897687B-But it would be IMPOSSIBLE to do this with the Tekken cast! You'd need at least a paragraph to describe ANY of them!
You can win a bout in VF in under 2 seconds if you know what you're doing.
>>10897582>>10897603>Zero Suit SamusTendies are not allowed to comment on VF
(Also Sarah’s archetype is Tall Hot Western Woman, just like Nina Williams)
I hate zoomers so much. Can they just stay off of /vr/ and /tg/? I wish they hadn't infested every hobbie and board I used to enjoy.. They're like fucking bedbugs.
>>10898025More people know Nina as Nina than they do Sarah as Sarah. Most only know Sarah as Zero Suit Samus from SFM porn
>>10898176>Most only know Sarah as Zero Suit Samus from SFM pornSpeak for yourself.
>>10898176So?
>>10898181The Tekken cast are more memorable as they are
>>10898183That's just because more people have played Tekken in the west.
>>10898183Only because Tekken is the more popular series in the west and there’s like 300 of those games.
>>10898189>>10898191There's a reason for that
>>10898196What's the reason?
>>10898197
>>10895281the same reason that they liked everything in the first wave of 3d: it was new and cutting edge. even when they were terribly janky, people still ate it up. subconsciously, things that played smoother and were a touch more refined got more love and are generally held in higher regard/nostalgia, but first wave of 3d got a MASSIVE pass for simply being new and exciting at the time. sadly, that nostalgia continues to cloud objective judgement, as you see people praising n64 shit on massive pedestals they dont deserve.
>>10898280What a retard, truly something you could expect from such abhorrent thread.
>>10898170The old /vr/ userbase tried to warn us that allowing gen 6 would bring a lot of /v/ shitposters. We didn't listen.
>>10895281They're blocky but honestly the animations are pretty good even today. I think a lot of the appeal of VF as a series is that the team actually did research on all the martial arts they implemented, so the movements all just look great and flow really well.
>>10897581And combos deal chunks of damage.
>>10897687it's easy rey mysterio refersl to el blaze because king isn't mysterio he's a furry
>>10898196The reason being that VF was stuck on sega consoles.90% of Tekken's userbase played that shit on playstation rather than the arcades.>>10898217Good point, it's a shame VF doesn't have a BR character yet.
>>10898176Doesn't change the fact that Sarah came before Nina.
>>10898330Eddie Gordo is also a really easy character to mash with and probably brought a lot of players into the game. VF doesn’t really have mash-friendly characters.
>>10898217>Eddie Gordo>He's not the fat guyAlways bothered by this
>>10898423>VF doesn’t really have mash-friendly characters.I say this as a VF fan, if VF5:US had had the same size playerbase as Tekken 8, I'm positive I could've made a Vanessa bot that just spammed DS 5KK and had a similar winrate to the Eddie 3333 bot.
>>10898312Astute post.You can really see the dev's appreciation of martial arts shine through, right from the first game. The more outlandish elements like the floaty jumps admittedly do detract but they were probably included to adhere to the established norms of fighting games of the time.>>10898280Nice subtle anti-tendie post tbqhwy.Still you just had to be there, it was a slick looking game for its time.>>10898473Yeah but Tekken has made a habit of introducing mash friendly characters, Eddy being the chief culprit, Hwoarang being not far behind desu.Hell, even Steve was ridiculously mashable though grounded in a somewhat real martial art. Not taking into account bullshit characters like Lily who don't even have a discernable style.
>>10898473Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that anecdote about Yu Suzuki vetting every single move added to the series to ensure balance. Based autism.
>>10896552give woman blue skinsuit and blonde ponytailimmediately recognizable as sarah bryantzoom zoom
>>10900130>Still you just had to be there, it was a slick looking game for its time.thats literally what i said. it was new and exciting. overwhelmingly so.
Soul Edge master race checking in.
>>10896735Yes. Because the focus of fighting games *is* the character models. First-person shooters' main focus is sophisticated level design (which no fighting game has)
>>10901801>(which no fighting game has)That's kind of a stupid thing to say. Level design means designing levels that suit the format well. Plenty of fighting games have levels that complement the gameplay or inform decisions you make in the game. Obviously the design of the levels is different than it would be for something like Doom or Quake, because they have a different purpose.
>>10898330>>>10898196>The reason being that VF was stuck on sega consoles.>90% of Tekken's userbase played that shit on playstation rather than the arcades.>>>10898217>Good point, it's a shame VF doesn't have a BR character yet.Pretty sure the best selling Virtua Fighter is is Virtua Fighter 2, as it was ported to the most platforms. But it was also the best selling Saturn game in Japan, there was a Windows 95 port, it had that weird Genesis port, and ended up on the PS2 and XBLA. For all the hype Virtua Fighter 3 got, it was only ever really ported to the Dreamcast (by Genki) as VF3: TB, and never really ended up on any other platform. Which really limited the exposure of VF3 to the arcades and single Dreamcast release. VF4 is on the PS2, where I think it sold well, and was sold as a $20.00 game. The first game also was ported to quite a few platforms as well.
>>10896612>>10896589>>10896572>>10896552Wolf is the most regoniczable VF imo
>>10901801>sophisticated level designad hominem, try again
>>10901962Model 3 games fucked with sega pretty bad by being so unportable
>anti-VF threads>pro-Tekken threadsWhy did this start happening on this board after the rule change?
>>10902535>Model 3 games fucked with sega pretty bad by being so unportableIt's funny, because one of the first games showcased for the Dreamcast was Scud Race, as it was featured in various gaming magazines as a launch game. There was a tech demo showcased of one of the tracks, I think this was the demo that caused the Scud Racer launch rumors. https://youtu.be/f4ZyI_x_zVkBut that never materialized. The Sega Rally 2 release was really hampered by being ported to WindowsCE. Sega Rally 2 was apparently ported to Windows first by AM3 (?) then re-ported again to the DC using WindowsCE. It was also one of the first DC games I ever bought. The framerate made it feel a bit rough. The Virtua Fighter 3: TB port was farmed out to Genki, who also did the Tokyo Xtreme games as well as Daytona USA 2001. Which was worse for the Japanese release, and OK-ish for the US release. The Dreamcast was hyped as being better than Model 3, but none of the DC ports ever looked as good as their Model 3 counterparts. Virtua Fighter 3: TB was overshadowed by Soul Calibur and DOA 2. Of course AM2 tried multiple times to port the game to the Saturn. Which never panned out.
>>10895325>No, that was Tekken.The first Tekken was way worse than the first Virtua Fighter.
>>10901801that doesn't look very sophisticated
>>10901906>Plenty of fighting games have levels that complement the gameplay or inform decisions you make in the game.>everyone plays in the training room
>>10902549/vr/ has become a contrarian board as a whole.
>>10895281Because it was the first one, that's all there is to it. I'd say even Virtua Racing aged better than VF1.
>>10902549>muh rule change bogeyman
>>10902827Not true in a lot of 3D fighters or the mortal kombat games.
>>10903253Don't act like it didn't impact the board quaity for the worse.
>>10903450Don't act like we didn't had million bait threads before it, /vr/ was only good for the first and maybe second year
>>10902728>excellent texture wok>baroque details upon the ceilings and walls, instead of just flat geometry >ambient lighting being utilized within certain sectors>interesting architecture>extremely detailed and large levels>full interactive 3D with verticality, water, AI, scripting, etcIt's very sophisticated. In fact, it's almost unbelievable to me that it released in 1996, because it's leagues ahead of the rest of the industry (barring Doom and Duke 3D, which are also unbelievable achievements). Quake 1 was undoubtedly the greatest accomplishment of true 3D games when it released. Please humor me, what do you think is better?
>>10903494Don't act like it didn't get even worse after the rule change and recently even worse by removing the IP counter.
>>10903526IP counter yes, rule change, no
>>10903547Console war shitposting was multiplied by a lot, and it makes sense. Even though Sega vs Nintendo is the classic console war (because the 16 bit era is the classic home video game golden era along with the NES, and PC Engine in Japan), since there was no mainstream internet back then, most people never actually console warred back then. Not to the "serious" extents of modern console warfare. 5th gen was more spicy because of the multiple damage that Sony did to both Sega and Nintendo, ultimately ending with Sega stepping out, something that still lingers fresh in people's minds. The natural peogression was the modern classic PS vs Nintendo that /v/ was built up from. Allowing 6th gen on /vr/ naturally brought the /v/ style console wars to /vr/.
>>10903512Not as impressive as things like VF3 but Quake was a good try for contemporary PC's hoping for "fast framerates" of 20.
>>10903764Yes, the game that codified all 3D level design in a monumentally comprehensive way is 'less impressive' than a billion dollar company using arcade-tier to make Street Fighter with polygons. Fuck off retard, you're pissing me off.
>>10903512>>interesting architecturewhat's so interesting about it? looks pretty genericscud race looks a lot cooler to me
>>10903845>moving the goal post
>>10898423>VF doesn’t really have mash-friendly characters.The VF2 champion in Japan was doing nothing but spamming df+PPPP with Lau, and he was unbeatable until someone figured out in the last second that it leaves him vulnerable, for a split second, to getting thrown off the map with Wolf's Giant Swing.>>10901962I wouldn't be surprised if VF4/E/VF5/FT on PS2/3/360 outsold VF2. That game was only released on Saturn, where it sold over one million, but all the others were released on systems with 7-10x the install base.>>10902535Model 3 games got screwed by being too far ahead of their time. Once there was any home system strong enough to handle it (not even PCs could do it until 1999 or so), the games were simply outdated. Tekken 3 and Soul Calibur both had more advanced animation, character models (not counting the dynamic clothing...), and arguably gameplay. VF3 had better reflections and lightning but things like the shoulder joints of each character looked like complete ass.VF3 on DC didn't look like ass because it was a poor port (it was virtually identical to the arcade, the only thing different were shit like minor difference in the background bitmap), it was because Soul Calibur was way the fuck more impressive.
>>10903512>>excellent texture woklmao quake 1 has like five textures for the levels (brick wall, stone wall, wood, water, doors). It was impressive as fuck for 1996 on PC, but that was it.
>>10903926>The VF2 champion in Japan was doing nothing but spamming df+PPPP with Lau, and he was unbeatable until someone figured out in the last second that it leaves him vulnerable, for a split second, to getting thrown off the map with Wolf's Giant Swing.A story with no names, no video, nothing. Why even say this?
>>10903884You are moving the goalpost, fuckface. I am taking 3D level design seriously, and you are just floating off into stupid nonsense. Same as this guy >>10903936
>>10903845>Fuck off retard, you're pissing me off.You'd probably get less mad and find people were more willing to listen to what you're saying if you could talk about things you liked without insulting things you don't like.
>>10903994I am not insulting anything. I am just perplexed at the idea that I /should/ regard an expensive custom arcade game as being "more impressive" than true interesting 3D level design on the basis that one has more computing fidelity.
>>10903974>>10904050>swapping between two goal post movings
>>10904050>I am just perplexed at the idea I /should/ regard a more technically complex game as being "more impressive" than a less technically complex game on the basis of objectively comparing technical specs rather than subjectively comparing level design choicesFix'd
>>10903845Well yeah, while id was playing with ray casting they were inventing the foundations of 3D. VF3 was a culmination of that knowledge to that point. While only a few months removed, Tomb Raider is a more interactive and interesting 3D game than Quake. I don't see the point in ignoring others achievements and chalking things up to a singular game when everyone was building on top of things they cumulatively understood to that point. It mostly sounds like PC inferiority complex stuff.
>>10904267>Tomb Raider is a more interactive and interesting 3D game than QuakeTomb Raider was always a bad game only sold on the protagonist having big tits.
>>10904080Quake is more technically impressive though. The engine and design is so robust that it's practically modern. I could write a million word essay on how Quake is the most important engine that has ever been conceived, still relevant today, or the importance of its design. But this is where this conversation gets difficult. If you, by your own admission, aren't interested in reading about game engines or design, what is the use? You *only* seem to be interested in the fact that expensive custom computers could output more polygons and colors (in a certain way), and think this means something. This is nothing short of very stupid and pedantic. Quake did /magnitudes/ more, with much less. Simple as.>>10904267No. On the contrary, this thread is obviously full of Sega diehards who will do anything to "own" computer fans by fapping to expensive arcade machines. Which is the ultimate form of shallow fanboy computer worship.
this thread is some retarded bullshit
>>10904291>I could write a million word essay on how Quake is the most important engine that has ever been conceived, still relevant today, or the importance of its design.You probably should. Even if that guy doesn't read it I would. As it is neither of you are saying anything substantial. It's like two magazine ads came to life and started arguing with each other.>VF3 was a culmination of all the 3D knowledge at that point!>Tomb Raider is more "Interactive and Interesting" 3D than Quake!>No! Quake is more TECHNICALLY impressive! It's important AND relevant!Neither of you are saying anything.
>>10896798Duke 3d on dos never got any path to support 3dfx.
>>10904291>If you, by your own admission, aren't interested in reading about expensive custom computers which could output more polygons and colors (in a certain way), what is the use? You *only* seem to be interested in the fact that game engines or design means something.This is what you look like>Quake did /magnitudes/ more, with much less.>with much lessYou have effectively conceded the issue, clearly you never understood what conversation was happening to begin with. Looking forward to your essay thread for Quake.
>>10904291>ad hominem again
This game in the video game hall of fame museum for it's advancement in 3D gaming.
>>10904361YOU are not saying anything. Your post only exists to invent a smug moral highground and act dismissive to people who want to discuss games. What convincing do you possibly require that would be good enough? This is a rhetorical question, of course. Nothing I could say would get your "approval".>>10904401I've conceded nothing. Your axiom: the word "impressive" means one stupidly specific thing. Which I do not agree with.
>>10904449>This is a rhetorical question, of course. Nothing I could say would get your "approval".Tell me some of the actual technologies Quake pioneered? What was it the first to do, or what features of its engine was it the first to combine? I'm not smug I'd genuinely like for either of you to say something about the things you're discussing because I like them both.
>>10904454One simple word: flexibility. Not only is Quake an extremely optimized 3D engine of the likes that had not been seen before, it has an incredible amount of depth in the amount of processes it can do. It's generally well regarded that the best examples of "3D" engines prior to Quake were Doom and Duke 3D. Doom and Build themselves are definitely worthy of a long discussion, but to keep it brief, Doom was very forward-thinking in the way that sectors could be used, and then Build pushed this idea to even greater extremes, with its with full morphing, animations, coloring, etc. especially details like entities can have far greater scripting or specialized behaviors. I would highly recommend mapping for Build if you've never tried it. Quake essentially is everything about Doom and Build realized into a proper 3D environment with real-time renderings (in terms of polygons, lighting, audio). It's not necessarily that Quake supposedly did something 'first' (although you definitely can make the argument for several features), but it's the fact that it delivers such a well-rounded and robust product, alongside being extremely cutting edge. I've referred to Quake as being practically modern during this thread. A slight exaggeration? Forks of Quake essentially can be passed as convincingly modern, look at something like Dimension of the Machine for proof of that.
>>10903845This is Quake in your mind? That's what you think of it? LMAO
>>10895828>anon says vf is like alien tech>quake schizo goes on a rampage>vf fags keep adding fuel to the firekek
>>10903926>I wouldn't be surprised if VF4/E/VF5/FT on PS2/3/360 outsold VF2. That game was only released on Saturn, where it sold over one million, but all the others were released on systems with 7-10x the install base.The Saturn port of Virtua Fighter 2 sold roughly 7-9 million copies going by most online sources. It is the best selling game on the system overall. With most of those sales coming from Japan. But, Virtua Fighter 2 was also bundled with the Sega Saturn in most regions later on. The NA market had this three game bundle: https://youtu.be/COXf3lgiMpI?t=1Which I had back in the day. I think Europe got a similar bundle, but with Sega Rally in replacement of Daytona. The original Virtua Fighter was also a pack-in game at launch. But it was replaced with the three game deal. The Saturn port of Virtua Fighter 2 was also ported to Windows 9x back in the day (as well as VF Remix). There was a Japanese release of the arcade port of VF2 on the PS2. https://youtu.be/DGXBpz4QyjsPlus there was an enhanced version of VF2 on XBLA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGHJHq0oHw8But I don;t know if this port is available anymore. And of course, there is that weird Genesis port that doesn't really count. But that port appeared on so many Genesis collections as well as the Genesis mini console. When you add up all of those versions, VF2 probably had the most exposure.
>>10904689>The Saturn port of Virtua Fighter 2 sold roughly 7-9 million copies going by most online sourcesWTF sources are you reading? Even the most generous estimates don't go above 2 million.
>>10904274Weak /v/ tier bait, likely an ocarina fan who holds a grudge against the game.>>10904291Odd attempt to pull a "No U!" All things are important in these foundational years. Quakes importance is often overstated with weird diagrams of engine offshoots but it's still a foundational game for 3D. It's not the be-all-end-all especially of 1996.
>>10904756It's not really possible to overstate Quake's importance.
>>10904454>textured arbitrary-polygon true 3DThe Terminator: Future Shock actually did this first, but it looks a lot uglier than Quake and plays worse so it's mostly forgotten. Doom/Build engine games are 2.5D. Descent is true 3D but not arbitrary polygon.>native TCP/IP Internet multiplayerDon't confuse this with LAN multiplayer. Much more convenient than earlier options, which needed third-party tools like Kali if you wanted to play over the Internet.>game logic written in its own language (QuakeC), which compiles to bytecode and runs in a VMThis allowed much more sophisticated modding than earlier games, giving us things like the the original Team Fortress (first FPS with headshots).>client side predictionThis was added with the QuakeWorld. Basically the standard for modern FPS. Allowed for tolerably good multiplayer over dialup, which was still common then.>3D accelerationAdded with GLQuake. Not actually the first game to use it, but hugely influential in promoting OpenGL over competing APIs. GPU manufacturers actually released "miniGL" drivers, which meant just enough OpenGL to run Quake.Combine all this with great aesthetics, soundtrack by Nine Inch Nails, good level design with plenty of verticality, and arguably the best movement in any FPS with extremely high skill ceiling. >>10904845 is 100% correct.
>>10905335>Added with GLQuakeAckshully vquake came first.
>>10903748proof = none
>>10905335>promoting OpenGL over competing APIswasn't it just Glide at the time?
>>10903959>A story with no names, no video, nothing.bunbunmaru vs daimonhttps://virtuafighter.com/threads/historic-rivalry-bunbun-maru-vs-daimon-lau.15150/video of the fight: https://youtu.be/51b1obiSn60?t=433full explanation video (remember to turn on english subtitles): https://youtu.be/_EXkjFbfzNs?t=335
>>10905357S3 produced some early (and slow) 3D accelerators with their own API.
>>10905368so this is... the power of VF
>>10904449It's the word "technically", as in "technologically". By stating how Quake is doing more with much less, you have effectively presented the evidence against itself being more technically impressive. Nobody is claiming Quake is not influential, there is no point of your contention beyond topical miscomprehension.
oh my god, will you two just fuck already?
>>10896136This guy was there. This is exactly how we felt, and keep in mind we played only.a few games at a time as shit was 1$ a hit aud. It's ez to shit on things now, but at the time everything new was exciting and things changed fast. VF and VF2 were fkn awesome on account of being a new thing and 3d shit we hadn't seen before. Easy to critique now
>>10905368Figuring out an exploit to do a move balanced to be used from crouch from a neutral stance sounds like typical 90s fighter shit
>>10905368Nice video. Check it out yourself. The Lau isn't "just spamming df+PPPP". He's doing something that requires such a difficult input that he's the only one in Japan who could do it. Bunbunmaru didn't find that "in the last second it leaves him vulnearble", he created an opening by labbing crouchdashes at specific times. Then they had a back and forth with Daimon adapting and Maru adapting back with low throws. Nobody's "just" doing anything, they're playing the game at a high level.The funny thing is that the very next part of the video shows almost the exact same back and forth happening but in a modern Tekken game, showing that Tekken's at about the same level now that VF was back during the VF2 era.
>>10906047>Bunbunmaru didn't find that "in the last second it leaves him vulnearble", he created an opening by labbing crouchdashes at specific times.He managed to do that specifically an inch away from getting ring outed, after losing two rounds in a row out of three. It happened in the last second before losing, and won him the tournament. It's nothing short of a Daigo SF3 moment.
>>10905414No. This is a false dichotomy that has already been addressed dozens of times.
>>10906047In any game made after the arcade era they'd patch out the lau move and there wouldn't ever be a counter devised
>>10906125>false dichotomy Learn what words mean before using them. You explained Quake had less technologically which is how it contrasts to VF3, so if that dichotomy is false it's not then revise your stance rather than parroting a phase you hoped would end the conversation.
>>10895308>Tactics Ogre>Virtua FighterBut they're not even the same genre???
>>10906428No, my position has always been that Quake is more technologically advanced. The game embodies every piece of modern design so succinctly. It does a million things that Virtua Fighter never even attempted. The things it set out to achieve were much more impressive and ambitious for the time, as a piece of technology, and this outcome is abundantly reflected within in the last 25+ years. The things that Virtua Fighter does better are trivial and arbitrary. Things like polygonal count and animation, within a very small space and under certain conditions. Quake is more technically impressive, and it preforms better on cheaper, generalist hardware. This is really what you're referring to, hardware. Like anyone should be impressed that specialized hardware designed to do something specific is more "impressive". This is just complete nonsense. If I have to explain this once again after this post, I give up. I feel like I've been repeating myself for the last 2 days. Buddy, if you want to convince me that I should view Virtua Fighter as more technologically impressive, go for it. I would love to see your reasons.
no one actually likes virtua fighter. its one of those cope series that only exists because npcs accidentally got the game for christmas or something instead of other fighters
>>10906927it will always be better than Smash and KI
>>10906923Is this ChatGPT?
>>10906923Writing off everything Virtua Fighter did as "it's just hardware!!" is just as disingenuous as if I were to write off everything John Carmack ever did as 'it's just software!!!!" You can be impressed or place more value on whichever thing you want, but when you say>I am not insulting anything.and then say>The things that Virtua Fighter does better are trivial and arbitrary.You're being ridiculous. Virtua Fighter was hugely influential, John Romero even talks about it sometimes when talking about working on Quake, and I don't know what good you think it does to pretend it was just some machine they put enough money into to get famous.
>>10906970>Virtua Fighter was hugely influentiali really dont see that myself. for what its worth i only played the original arcade (and completely stopped playing it once mortal kombat was out), vf2 on saturn, and evo on ps2. so i only played the game casually, but from my perspective i really dont see much influence in other fighters today, at least from a presentation perspective (characters, graphics). are you talking about autistic game mechanics or what? my take on virtua fighter is that it was just kind of a more boring tekken whos popularity seemed to wane pretty early.
if your game has ring outs its not a fighting game
>>10906981ring outs are more fun than corner juggles or infinite floors
>>10906978>it was just kind of a more boring tekkenI think that you just don't know enough about the topic to have such strong opinions about it then. There literally wouldn't be a Tekken if not for Virtua Fighter.Also people love to say Virtua Fighter's a "more boring" Tekken because it doesn't have lmao WHOA a BEAR!?!? and he's using a FISH like a ROCKET LAUNCHER and AKUMA is shooting a PIZZA!!?!?! but that shit's retarded. What made and still makes VF interesting is that its rooted in actual martial arts. Yu Suzuki actually studied different arts and movements specifically so that they could be animated correctly and look interesting. Tekken stole all this, added some teenage anime bullshit about DEVIL GENES and LASERS, and then just started adding shit they saw in karate movies.For the actual gameplay though, just check VF5 footage versus Tekken 7 or 8 matches for yourself. Tell me which one looks more boring to play to you. Here's a good and surprisingly representative Tekken clip. Keep in mind, what they're doing is hard and it's a VERY competitive game, but does it LOOK fun? Does it LOOK like a fight?
>>10897776Finally someone says it.
>>10906923>Like anyone should be impressed that specialized hardware designed to do something specific is more "impressive".The Model 3 board was considered top of the line with the launch of VF3, it went on to have other games made for it as arcade boards do. You're twisting in the wind unable to accept how arcade hardware and consumer hardware weren't technologically equal, mistakenly believing arcade hardware superiority somehow invalidates the accomplishments made on other platforms.
>>10906970It's definitely not as disingenuous as you're making it seem. Like at all. These are 2 completely different games on different hardware. 1 is a billion dollar company purposely building specialized hardware to get the best utility out of animation, polys, and colors, specifically in the context of a fighting video game. The other is a first-person shooter running on generalist hardware made by some newcomers. You can quite clearly see that these are completely different games, for extremely obvious reasons. The reason I prefer Quake is because it has much more elaborate engine trappings that make it more fleshed out in most regards that I think are imporatant. idSoftware made something that was more impressive in my eyes. I'm not even trying to dismiss VF, like it's doing something 'wrong' for not being Quake. I just think Quake is quite clearly a better representation of technological prowess and innovation. If the argument is that VF is 'better' because idSoftware didn't create custom computers, I think this is just eye-poppingly stupid. Quake without any limitations is something like Dimension of the Machine. It's that simple. They weren't idiots. They were geniuses, who purposely chose the most pragmatic technology. Technology which actually won out.>>10907125See above.
>>10907208>The other is a first-person shooter running on generalist hardware made by some newcomers.How exactly were id newcomers at that point? Wolfenstein, Doom, and Doom 2 were incredibly popular and had basically defined the genre at that point. Quake did a lot, for sure, but it was absolutely building on a firm and established successful structure already.Sega had a lot of money, but you're acting like they were one big bank account that Yu Suzuki could freely draw from and that they were ONLY working on AM2 stuff, which isn't even true. And even if AM2 DID have more money, spending money on R&D doesn't change how influential it was in any way. Plus VF was NOT just building on a past success, so they were a lot more of a "newcomer" in that sense than anyone at id was, given that they were creating a brand new type of game.>BUT IT'S JUST STREET FIGHTER!Not in any meaningful way. There are punches and kicks but the way jumps work and the introduction of the block button changed them substantially.
>>10895292You watch your mouth when you talk about my wife, buddy
>>10906981Aye yo dis nigga gets it, i've scene a wrassler, boxer or heck any martial 'artist' ever get ring outed.>>10907009Looks like they're getting PIECED UP by each others feints
>>10907489I guess you’ve never watched sumo
>>10907323>the introduction of the block buttonI might've gotten the timeline mixed up but I always thought about Mortal Kombat whenever "block button on a fighting game" ever mentioned. and not in a good way.
>>10907725That's true, I forgot about MK.
>>10904668My bad for the alien tech trigger term
>>10895348No it's not, crying faggot console warrior. You sound as underage as the OP.
>>10895281Sega fans were desperate for a win
>>10895619You don't actually know what the fuck you're talking about. The fighting engines are barely alike. Stick to trying to clear arcade mode without dying.
>>10907009>muh mind gamesand it gets dumber when tournament players decide to play different than what "high level" players do, and the opponent shuts down mentally, stupid stuff really
>>10897120Of course 2 was a better game. This game was a tech demo in comparison.
VF1 was genuinely fucking insane for its time. Calling the game "ugly" is sheer retardery considering real time 3D graphics in a fighting game were absolutely unprecedented.It's easy to call a game ugly when you have the modern context of its sequels. Just because VF4 is my favorite fighting game doesn't mean VF1 wasn't valuable as fuck
>>10907323Was idSoftware a global company that had been making computer hardware since the 80s? No. It was like 10 guys in Texas that had 2 popular games. They definitely did not have the same resources.
>>10897210I'd say this was actually a neg. Or at least around my spot. More than hadoukens, weapons are actually teh cool, while punches and kicks were lame. People were clamoring about Soul Edge and Battle Arena Toshinden because of it, and even Fighting Vipers just because Raxel was the epitome of cool (and Picky to some extent).
>>10907927Uh, both games were literally designed by the same guy and have the same basic high-low-mid system. They're different games of course but saying they're "barely alike" is stretching it.
>>10896089>Harada himself has said that the guiding philosophy of Tekken in the 90s was to rip off whatever VF didsounds like you just invented that out of thin air
>>10910082https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPX6woqXPdM&t=1599sHere's a video of him talking about how much he admires VF and how it was always his benchmark and goal to surpass it. The coolest thing about Harada is that while Tekken fans always scream and cry about VF because Tekken's more popular but less "respected", Harada just coolly acknowledges how important and well-made all the games are. He's a cool dude.I dunno if he's ever said he just wanted to "rip off" VF, but VF fans have to have their copes too.
>>10907208>>10908228>technological innovation is best demonstrated with average hardwareThe Amiga boing demo was cool and very exciting for the consumer market but it wasn't even close to what was considered technologically innovative outside the consumer market. You're trying to compare products from incomparable industries.
>>10895281To be honest with you, I never knew anyone who did.
>>10907009tekken 3-5 were HUGELY popular, and vf was already long forgotten and nobody gave a shit. yes, tekken has gotten progressively more and more silly/ridiculous, but vf has always been really stiff and uninteresting. using a clip of tekken 7 tournament pros playing defensive mind games in a game where defense is generally considered the best/safest/reliable strategy is a very poor metric, considering you could use play from mid-high ranks and be quite hype, on top of the fact that vf5 (your chosen comparison) came out in 2006 and nobody has really given a shit since then. pros, with money and title on the line, looking to not make a mistake, when a single mistake leads to a massive disadvantage and usually followed up by a guaranteed 50/50, do not represent the point that you think you're making. you're being extremely disingenuous.
>>10908013it can still be "cutting edge at the time" and "the best they could possibly do, and nobody had ever seen it this good before that" while the result is still "ugly". you can give it the proper respect it is due while still being honest about it, and being honest about it doesnt diminish that respect.
sounds like you don't know shit about any of this and should probably keep your dumb cunt mouth shut.this shit is ancient history in the fgc.
This thread's still up? Can we all agree VF is forgettable?
>>10910795no, sorry
>>10910795btfo eh?
>>10910795its mostly still up because 2 retards lost sight of the original question a long time ago, but kept arguing about irrelevant bullshit and petty semantics for ~100 posts.
>>10910878>irrelevant bullshitSo the VF series
>>10910880>t. tekken whiner
>>10910698>defence>in a game with automated defencelollmao evenjust don't press any buttons nigga
>>10895828>Quake on their Voodoo Graphics cards in 1996Wasn't GLQuake 1997?
>>10910698>vf5 (your chosen comparison) came out in 2006 and nobody has really given a shit since then>vf was already long forgotten and nobody gave a shit.VF was and is still really popular in Japan. Even without having released a new game in basically 18 years at this point, they have a giant team tournament for it every year. You're not the world.>using a clip of tekken 7 tournament pros playing defensive mind games in a game where defense is generally considered the best/safest/reliable strategy is a very poor metricNo, footage of a fighting game being played at its highest level is THE metric for judging what the game should look like. Go look at footage of high level VF play, you'll never see a timeout and you'll never see two players jittering around like idiots for a full 10 seconds. You can say VF is "stiff and uninteresting" but at least the matches are fun to watch, even if you don't know what's going on it's not two anime characters jerking around running out the clock.
Reminder that OP should be executed for making such an abhorrent thread.
>>10911526>they have a giant team tournament for it every year.so its like melee (and not even as good). nobody ACTUALLY gives a shit, but the small group of really loud autists makes it seem popular.>being played at its highest level is THE metric for judging what the game should look likeagain, using clips of tekken 7 (or is that one 6? i skipped 6), which is so far removed from anything virtuafighter, is a poor and disingenuous comparison. you can look at tekken5DR evo grand finals and it is SIGNIFICANTLY more aggressive. you are INTENTIONALLY misrepresenting things. additionally, saying that how the pros play is how the game "should" look is laughably out of touch. t7 had people dissecting the frame data and autistically fixating on the most efficient risk/reward moves. it was not the same environment at all, and literally everyone agreed that style of play was boring to watch. they tried to adjust things with patches, and t8 took some wild changes to prevent turtling being an optimal strategy. it is by no means perfect, but you are wildly out of touch. also, comparing your vf clips to basically ANY other fighting game, it makes me wonder if the people playing vf are even "the top players" at all, because every other fighting game will have significantly more blocking. watching matches of mk, sf, gg, kof, anything at all and you will see opponents blocking significant lengths of strings, while your vf clips show people just eating move after move as if blocking doesnt even exist. it LOOKS like amateur level of other games. so in that regard, i have to say that quality of game and players is at least questionable, and maybe that is one of the reasons why it has no popularity. you are being intentionally obtuse, and it just goes to show how empty of an argument you have.
>>10911785>additionally, saying that how the pros play is how the game "should" look is laughably out of touch. t7 had people dissecting the frame data and autistically fixating on the most efficient risk/reward movesAlright, you just don't play fighting games. The game becomes the actual game at the highest level. If you want to tell me how aggressive Tekken TRULY is and upload some clips of you and your friends gorilla mashing against each other and having close games, feel free.>TEKKEN 5 WAS WAY MORE AGGRESSIVE!!Here's a clip from Evo 2008 Tekken 5 grand finals. It's...the same shit.>you are being intentionally obtuse, and it just goes to show how empty of an argument you have.Has a Tekken player ever had an argument other than "WELL BUT IT'S THE MOST POPULAR! VF IS DEAD!!!!" Is Avatar your favorite movie? It made the most money. Is Thriller your favorite album?
>>10911813>Here's a clip from Evo 2008 Tekken 5 grand finals. It's...the same shit.except, it isnt. you posted 2 clips where literally nothing happened. then, in this clip, there is a ko in the same time it took for the vf ko (although the vf clip starts with missing health, so it seems like the round has gone on longer than shown, which would make the tekken round much quicker). theres nothing wrong with a little wavu-wavu using the motion and animations to psyche out your opponent, but when your ENTIRE gameplan revolves around that (like in t7), yes it gets pretty dull. >The game becomes the actual game at the highest level.keep telling yourself that. you clearly know nothing about game design. that sort of argument is like saying speedrunning is how the game "should" be played. top tournament sets are not what makes or breaks a game to the masses. speedrunning is not what makes or breaks a game to the masses. you are nothing more than a disingenuous cuck.
>>10911893>that sort of argument is like saying speedrunning is how the game "should" be played.It's not like that at all. Fighting games are 1 v1 fights where your objective is to win. They should be played in such a way that you win more than you lose. The people playing at the highest level are the players who became the best at winning, and as such they're playing the game the way it was meant to be played. It's that simple.>except, it isnt. you posted 2 clips where literally nothing happened.Plenty of stuff happened in the VF clip.1) Throws (Something you almost never see in high level Tekken)2) Throw breaks3) ReversalsI'll agree with you though that nothing happened in the Tekken clip. Pretty dull, kind of my point.
>>10911936>became the best at winning, and as such they're playing the game the way it was meant to be played.again, you're wrong and missing the point. the top players (and speedrunners, because it IS exactly the same) are better at what they do than the devs who design them. the devs only have the scope of their own abilities, or the abilities of their testers, to build off of. if you make a card game that is generally intended to be played a certain way, and then some autist figures out some busted infinite combo and therefore "the best way to win", but the devs didnt intend for that, as it subverts all of the other design intentions, it is NOT "the way it was meant to be played". as such, you clearly know nothing about game design. the dev team has limited ability. players boiled things down for the most "optimal" strategies. the devs (and fans) hated this, so they did the best they could do and revamp the whole thing with the heat system and chip/grey damage in t8. thats the best that they could come up with, but thats not without its own flaws. you're absolutely kidding yourself if think optimal play is the same as the way it was "meant" to be played. >1) Throws (Something you almost never see in high level Tekken)because people at the top have the skill and training to reliably throw break, so its often a useless move, on top of being risky because it could also be ducked and punished at that level of play. logically, one might think "well if its so useless, why is it still even in the game then?" and the answer is literally what i said before: "optimal" play is not the same as "the way it was meant to be played", in addition to being designed for all skill levels.also, hilariously, there is a throw in the tekken clip too, where devil jin throws kazuya up and lasers him (and you know its a throw from the pink particle right before it).>2) Throw breakssee above>3) Reversalsnon-point, and not every tekken character has a form of parry or reversal.
character limit>>10911936>I'll agree with you though that nothing happened in the Tekken clip.never said that. quite the opposite in fact. and objectively more happened in less time than your chosen vf clip. you can find it it dull or whatever all you want, but you're a disingenuous, contrarian troll with absolutely zero point and an inability to articulate any form of actual counter argument. as such i accept your concession. thank you for proving me right.
>>10911936>except, it isnt. you posted 2 clips where literally nothing happened.>Plenty of stuff happened in the VF clip.im sorry, i overlooked this when i first responded. you misunderstood. what i said was that you have posted 2 clips of nothing happening IN TEKKEN in your previous posts, and then you showed a clip of tekken 5 where things DO happen (just like i said they would), so its not the same at all, which was my earlier point, that using later tekken as an example is fucking stupid, because that hype and aggression were definitely there in older entries, much closer in time to when vf was remotely relevant and comparable. so you're either fucking retarded, or just a contrarian troll with nothing of value to say.
>>10912174>so you're either fucking retardedNo, you just didn't explain what you meant very well because you're mad.>you're a disingenuous, contrarian troll with absolutely zero point and an inability to articulate any form of actual counter argument.I think the problem is you've misunderstood what I've been trying to say this whole time, which is that Tekken looks boring to me. I showed you some examples and explained why it looks boring to me, and you're saying I'm somehow being disingenuous about an opinion I have about a game for...some reason?>>10912150You're just agreeing with me. Yeah, the devs didn't like how the top players were playing, so they changed the game to try and change how they played it. They're balancing around the way the top players because they realize THAT'S the game. They add aesthetic stuff like camera zooms and whatnot for everyone, but balancing decisions are 100% based on what the tournament players are doing.Also, do you realize we're talking about Tekken? Why are you so obsessed with arguing about how and why I argue than what we're actually talking about? I think once you can answer that, you'll learn something about yourself. Bye!
>>10896612VF was supposed to be a bit more realistiv then SF2, wheres the Blanka or Dhalsim or the M.Bison in VF?
>>10912215Dural, I guess.
>>10912215>wheres the Blanka or Dhalsim or the M.Bison in VF?They're not there because VF is supposed to be a bit more realstic than SF2.
>>10912186>Tekken looks boring to me.>uses clips of ONLY the most optimal play, from newer releases that were much more "solved" in that optimal play was primarily defensive. and my point was that thats your own fault, and you're disingenuous in your argument. if you find the 3rd clip you posts (the tekken 5 clip) to be more "boring" than vf, then you clearly just have a preconceived bias, because it was just as much or more active than the vf clip below it. >they realize THAT'S the gameonce again, no they dont. its largely a marketing thing, because "the top players" get to be the face of the game, and thats not the type of game play that they want representing what the rest of the game has to offer. >balancing decisions are 100% based on what the tournament players are doingnot true at all, and once again you make it abundantly clear that you have no idea how game development or design works. yes, the they do make significant changes based off of them, but it is not 100%, and you're kidding yourself. people LOVE playing the game, but they found that watching that sort of tournament play to not be fun. meanwhile, nobody gives a shit about virtua fighter AT ALL. nobody wants to play it, and nobody wants to watch it. tekken has more memorable characters and moves. it has snappier moves and animations. combos are satisfying. blocking matters. reading your opponent matters. vf is stiff, dull, and forgettable. as such, it got forgotten, while tekken is enjoying the height of its popularity, and thats even DESPITE the turtle meta of t7 (and bamco doing everything it can to sabotage t8). you find tekken boring? cute. good for you. but if you want to try to argue that vf is better and more exciting, you're delusional, and no better than a sonic autist trying to say that sonic adventure is the greatest game ever made.
>Why did people like this?Because it was new and rudeIt had an attitude
>>10912449>vf is stiffskill issuelol probs can't even into akira's knee
>>10912997how is it a skill issue? im not talking about the controls. im talking about the animations.
>>10911813>>10911936>>10912150>>10911893>>10912150>>10912174>>10912186>>10912232>>10912449>>10895325>>10896136>>10897120>>10896869>>10904267>>10905335Fucking Tennis man.................DOA2 mogs all VF's and most of the Tekkens.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceEtvwsFE7E&ab_channel=AyaAnnyGaminghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93RgwWA-SIY&ab_channel=AyaAnnyGaminghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttkov72oV4A&ab_channel=hdrgbentertainment
>>10913089Too bad the DOA franchise ruined its own reputation by being softcore porn no one takes seriously
>>10913089DOA is the faster normie-friendly version of VF with more titties.(which is fine, I'm just calling it like it is)
>>10913112>>10913121Said the normies and puritan lefties.
>>10913149>doesn't remember "She Kicks High"
>>10913149>DOA is the faster normie-friendly version of VF with more tittiesFind one part of that statement that is false.
>>10913112the real problem with doa was always the gameplay
>>10913210>strawman Strawman konGA!
how is this >>10911813 better then this? >>10913210DoA is fast
>>10913210man Vanilla DoA2 (Arcade and Dreamcast) has such great color pallettes, then they fucked them up with the Ultimate version and later games went for le black shadows on characters and desaturation
>>10913065Its apparent you're not qualified enough to make that assessment. They even put in hit sparks for people like you in 5.VF is smooth as butter once you git gud.
>>10913558i can just watch it, at any level of play, and its still very stiff and staccato. your argument is invalid.
>>10913652>staccatoaye yo we have a ballroom dancer in here.So you prefer the series where virtually almost any novice can jiggle around the screen without repercussion due to its automated defence, where the cast can shoot laserbeams and fire rocket arms. I cannot sanction a comparison where one series is compromised of ever increasing outlandish bufoonery versus a series that tries to showcase actual martial arts for the most part.
>>10895297It is perfectly balanced. Based on your retarded assertion, I know I would comfortably destroy you with any character. In fact, I won't even move, will that help?
>>10895336>can't argue, better change the script to Tekken 2Now THAT'S a side step! Based retard.
>>10914020>automated defence>any novice can jiggle around the screen without repercussionyou out yourself as knowing actually nothing about tekken.
>>10895325even DoA chose to copy VF's framework over Tekkenin terms of industry influence even Soul Calibur is ahead of Tekkenthat's why T7 went back to the drawing board and made the pacing more VF to resurrect the seriesit's also why people are nervous when Sega says they want the new VF to be as "dramatic" as Street Fighter
>>10913112You say that but they censored the last game and it killed the franchise.
>>10914931>that's why T7 went back to the drawing board and made the pacing more VF to resurrect the serieswhat on earth are you talking about?
>>10914964Pretty sure it was the excessive fanservice itself that killed DOA
>>10915019And yet the game that minimizes it was the game that killed it.
>>10914969TTT2 performed abysmallythe shorter, simpler combos going from bound to screw and continued nerfs to movement from T6 so characters are closer after 1 bd made it one of the more interactive games in the series on release. throw game was also simplified like from vf4 and all its OSes to vf5.this is heading into /v/ territory though
>>10915019nope, it was once again chasing the esports dollar. CEOs aren't immune to marketing any more than jaded anons on imageboards. They don't realise Capcom and Namco *BUY* their "success" with real world dollars. Those FGC tournaments don't have SF6 topping the entries organically. Capcom put up the most money and the most players chase the most money. But all considered they don't actually bring in enough people buying the actual game to make it worth while. They just hope that at some point down the line all this "investment" will bear fruit. Spoiler: it won't.DoA6 tried to turn itself into a tourneyfag game without buying its placement and it crashed and burned. Why would tourneyfags ever play your game if there wasn't a cash prize on the line? They hate the games they play as much as they hate themselves.DoA5 started out as a nerfed, "serious" take on DoA. It bombed. They then released an ultimate edition and started churning out sexy costumes and crossovers. It made shitloads of money off the whales and spawned another sexy beach game.
>>10915025>>10915407Anon... people who actually play fighting games with both hands on the controller all agree that the fanservice killed DOA. It turned away too many potential players. And the tiddyball shit was added insult to injury
>>10914748I know more than you obviously, now answer me this question:What button or input do i have to press in Tekken to defend high and mid attacks?>>10914931New VF, is Suzuki in charge still?
>>10915559No, yu suzuki hasn't worked on a VF game since 4
Suzuki has worked on VF, just not a new VF game
>>10915559back. if you press anything else, you will likely get hit. if you happen to be pressing nothing, your character will generally block, but there are many strings that will open you up and cause you take damage, which would not happen if you were holding back. your assumption that defense is "automated" is laughably out of touch, especially when you assume that you can "freely move" at the same time. if you press forward, you will get hit. if you are trying to side step/walk and a move has tracking/sweeping properties, you will get hit. if you try to attack at a frame disadvantage, you will get hit. you also have to react to lows, and in such a way that you dont misread what was actually a mid, because ducking will get you hit by a mid. "automated defense" is not a relied upon "feature".
>>10916268I accept your concession.
>>10916386the facts speak for themselves louder than you or i ever could. you have no argument, and nonsense said after getting utterly BTFO means nothing. as such, your words and actions serve as your own concession, as you are unable to refute anything, and have been wrong from the start. laughably ironic, really. does it feel good to put shit on your own face and dance around? does it feel good to be utterly retarded and shitpost?
>>10916936What's to refute?By your own admission you conceded my point that Tekken has an automated block and even admitted to being a scrub that can't even into neutral guard.Laughable.
>>10917592an automated block that is unreliable and bad, so nobody actually uses it. you're putting it on a pedestal as some sort of grand feature that lowers the skill ceiling of the game when its actually a non-factor for anybody that actually plays it. theres even a frame difference between doing a move and holding back during your recovery frames, and not pressing anything for "neutral guard", where neutral guard takes longer to kick in. you dont get to just magically block everything by not pressing buttons like you imply with your previous posts, and you cannot refute that. you made a claim that you can freely move or "jiggle around the screen without repercussion" due to the "feature" of neutral guard, but that is objectively incorrect, as i illustrated, and you cannot refute that. you think neutral guard is all powerful, and yet there are strings that literally open it up and force damage, unlike holding back to block which will block all of the damage from those strings, and you cannot refute that. you have been proven wrong on all meaningful counts. all that you have left is "neutral guard exists", while completely ignoring that its bad and not even active during movement. you have no real point to make, and are unable to refute anything that has discredited your claims. absolute clownshoes from start to finish.
Wait anon-kun, so after you've been forced to acknowledge neutral block and its implications, you are now saying neutral block is le bad??I could go on a long, techical explanation as to why i'm right and you're wrong but I won't as I feel as though it would be a waste of both our times.But i digress, why are you championing a game with admittedly bad or ill thought out mechanics anon?My guess as to why is this, you can pick multiple characters in which you can literally mash the kick buttons to unleash an endless barrage of spinny kicks. I sincerely hope you enjoy doing so anon.Speaking of clownshoes i'm surprised that Tekken hasn't introduced an actual clown character considering the state of the cast (and its current playerbase if you're anything to go by).Perhaps you can korean wave dash out of this thread and go back to spamming laserbeamz, rocket arms or maining a kangaroo.A series like VF, (though fantastical in itself) is obviously too grounded in reality for a zoomer tourist such as yourself to appreciate.
>>10918482>and its implicationsthere are no implications. >neutral block is le bad??always has been>I could go on a long, techical explanation as to why i'm right and you're wrong but I won'tthank you for admitting that you are unable to refute anything, and that you're just a contrarian troll. :)>why are you championing a game with admittedly bad or ill thought out mechanicsall im saying is that it definitely deserves its popularity, especially compared to virtua fighter that earned its own obscurity. i never said it was flawless or perfect, just better. and neutral block is a non-issue, as i explained earlier. >My guess as to whyis a just a further admission to being a troll with nothing to saystay salty
I see you've resorted to pilpulling me now. I'm am quite capable of explaining my point but I shouldn't even need to if we're going to be honest about how the average round of Tekken usually plays out.You are only in this thread to trash the superior series for (you)'s.
>>10896136>the arcades for most people were the first time they ever saw 3d.>most peopleIn Brazil maybe.
Too bad VF is literally dead with no one playing it
>>10915467ad hominem and I'll have you know I hump my bed while i play so there
>>10918640thank you for proving me right.
>>10918482see this is why no one plays virtua fighter it's full of arrogant smug assholes, stick to street fighter bros theres no 3d assholes in the second dimension!
>>10911024>a game with automated defenceThere is a reason that this is never even brought up in threads that are all about shitting on Tekken. You have no idea what you are talking about, or how insignificant it is.
>>10919080Not everybody went to work with Dad to see the 3D nuclear bomber simulators he was working on for Northrop Grumman in 1985, anon
I just watched this: https://youtu.be/KkksrxeH43E?si=88gBd8D0jYTCNDDtLong story short: it influenced many 3d games after it including almost every other fighting game, it influenced id Software, it influenced Tomb Raider, it influenced the creation of the PlayStation, it influenced motion capture for video games
I really hope VF6 is released and it's good
>>10919723and just like how the musket influenced all manner of future firearms, its became an outdated relic of the past, surpassed by its successors.
>>10919730I hope they keep the throw escape system from FS but lower the damage on juggles or just lose the bounding stuff altogether.
>>10919730i have no faith in SEGA to not do what every other legacy game is doing and try to make it more appealing to casual consumers and end up alienating everyone except for the people who can make money off it
>>10919818>virtua fighter>make moneypick one.
>>109198695FS is literally titled Virtua Fighter eSports in Japan, clearly some people are getting a little boost to their income
>>10916268The actual point is that neutral/back to block makes backdashing safe, it doesn't work that way in other 3D fighting games because you can't block and backdash at the same time. Ironically though Tekken is supposed to be about spacing, when it comes to backdashing spacing matters more in other fighting games.>your assumption that defense is "automated" is laughably out of touch, especially when you assume that you can "freely move" at the same time. if you press forward, you will get hit. if you are trying to side step/walk and a move has tracking/sweeping properties, you will get hit. if you try to attack at a frame disadvantage, you will get hit. you also have to react to lows, and in such a way that you dont misread what was actually a mid, because ducking will get you hit by a mid. "automated defense" is not a relied upon "feature"The thing is that every other 3D fighting game has these features, but Tekken dumbs down backdashing for some reason.
>>10913210That's a hi-counter hold though, which requires specific timing.
>>10920003that's normal timing for reversals in vf
It's basically impossible for the new DoA or VF to be good. They're going to be compared to Last Round and Final Tuned/Final Showdown respectively which had years of refinements each. The only way they'd build any good will would be to not try and sell us a Season Pass until after the first year or the first EVO.
>>10920346The only way to make Virtua Fighter palatable for a new audience without alienating the old fans is to turn the anime into a playable campaign. Normies will eat that shit up.
>>10920352The only way to get the masses into VF would be to make it a Yakuza Gaiden game that's important to the story of the next 3 games and have 2P versus as just a very feature-filled bonus.
>>10920346If anything, both games will be compared to Tekken
>>10920346Honestly the reason the balance in VF is so good is because each version is just kind of an iteration of the previous version.
>>10919365That comment with picrel was supposed to be ironic, right?
>>10920352You mean the thing that maybe a handful of people watched?
>>10920352*cough*
>>10920517only the absolute gutter of humanity who has never spent more than an hour with either of those games would compare them to tekkensoulcalibur is MUCH MORE like both VF and DOA than tekken
>>10920528>make an anime tie-in for weebs, but make it an even worse version of VF2 on Genesis
>>10920548You're right SC is like DOA. Both games died trying to pander to sexless otaku
>>10920551how is that remotely trueit's true doa6 didn't fit the social mores of the time despite the fact that mr wizard was a child diddling lard of shit, but also it wasn't good enough for the established doa community to defend it and it didn't have rollback then tecmo said the game would stop getting updates. series has been asleep since then.sc6 didn't take off for competitive players because it had no rollback going into the pandemic and didn't have a TWT and casuals just use it for character dress up. you say sexless otaku but i find female players are just as likely to enjoy the dress up elements. it's still played by big female streamers in japan.
>>10920565Pretty sure it was the excessive fanservice that killed both franchises, and SC even having a hentai artist make guest costumes
>>10920527Yep it's fresh content for potential new fans. It's perfect.
>>10920594And how did that turn out, exactly? >>10920528
>>10920551Uhh kinda I blame the character creator. See the bulk of the purchases come from casuals, and while the CaS is a great way to get them to buy the game it makes them ignore the main cast. Pair this with endings less satisfying than the ones from Tekken and the shitty time skip from SCV, and the cast turn into move sets for weebs to make their waifus. I feel DoA could've still survived off the coomer dollar alone if they didn't censor but SoulCalibur gives the coomer too much power with CaS.
>>10920602alright pal I'd like to see you take a crack at it what's your idea?
>>10920621Easy: dump VF entirely. It's a lost cause
>>10920625your words are as empty as your soul
>>10920629I'm not a tablecuck desperately clinging to a party masher that stopped being relevant after the mid-90s
>>10920632no I think you're just a joyless faggot
>>10920637>if you don't consoom dead game you're just a joyless faggot
>>10920651Yes, and you're truly repugnant as well as a loud mouthed jerk! Good day to (You) sir! HMPH!
>>10920671See this is why no one likes you VF shills. You're arrogant and all talk
>>10915467>Anon... people who actually play fighting games with both hands on the controller all agree that the fanservice killed DOA. It turned away too many potential players. And the tiddyball shit was added insult to injuryWhat the fuck? I've been playing DoA 2-5LR and had friends in competitive circles in college. Everyone either loves, is fine with or doesn't care about the fan service in the games, even a lot of girls (cool chicks they were I might add). It was Koei Tecmo going after the fanservice and trying to turn the game into an e-sports magnet that killed the franchise. You're talking about a game series where there's a separate physics engine for the breasts in addition to regular entities. If you play DoA, you know what to expect and it had a solid fanbase KT shat on for e-fame that never materialized.
>>10920835You're on 4chan. Do you even have friends?
>>10920839Believe it or not, the Internet isn't real life. If you weren't a retarded eternal newfaggot, you'd know that by default.
>>10920841Believe it or not, your group of "friends" are not indicative of the rest of the world. A vast majority of people do not want their games to be shallow softcore porn. "She Kicks High" was laughing at coomers like you, not with you
>>10919998ok? considering that "back" is the block button, its pretty intuitive to block while moving backwards. spacing in tekken IS very important, because there is a HUGE difference between whiffing and hitting a block. that still has nothing to do with neutral blocking, or being able to "freely move". its also not really a problem, or even something anybody brings up even in threads hating on tekken.
>>10920578i dont remember exactly what went wrong with DoA, but SC died due to shitty netcode, constant crashes, and cheaters. sc6 was cute and fun for the first little while, but it quickly got out of hand and got ruined. people stopped playing, people got turned away from buying, and it flopped.
>>10920849>Believe it or not, your group of "friends" are not indicative of the rest of the world. But they are indicative of the actual fans of the series, who don't care about ass and titties in video games. I don't care what the rest of the world thinks, nor should I or anyone that likes something innocuous as attractive females and their features. Koei Tecmo learned the hard way that the "modern audience" doesn't exist and you are better off delivering to longtime fans or people that could realistically become fans than chasing after casuals who will drop the game after a session.>A vast majority of people do not want their games to be shallow softcore porn.Then they shouldn't buy a DoA game or any game with ass and titties. Problem solved.>"She Kicks High" was laughing at coomers like you, not with youIf anything, it's a relic from a time when gaming companies (and just companies in general) knew what their customers wanted and delivered. You want to see hot chicks with firm asses and nice titties kick ass? You got it. Now everything has to be obfuscated by retarded political nonsense and and endless sea of buzzwords. There's nothing wrong with finding a normal, healthy woman (real, imagined or an artistic rendition of one) attractive. Why is it so hard to believe that there is not a game for all audiences, but all games are for some audience? It's silly to say fanservice caused DoA's demise when it has always been a part of the seires. The only thing that changed is that KT chased after the e-sports and "modern audience" autism only to find out it's all bullshit.
I'm trying the VF characters in DoA5 and it just proves to me that VF is timeless. It's amazing how intact they are, down to the execution.
>>10920873The fact you had to type up paragraph after paragraph to defend a mid masher that's just a reskin of a masher no one has cared about since the 90s "BUT WITH BAP" is sad. People who actually play video games, let alone fighting games, do not play them just to stare at a screen and jack off
>>10921016not that anon, but its so tiresome to constantly hear the argument that people are"jacking off" while playing, or right after/because of playing. its just simple amusement. i downloaded the nude april mod for shredder's revenge. i didnt "jack off" to it at all. it just put a smirk on my face every time i turned it on or encountered the character. i gave me amusement to watch it in action. thats it.
>>10921016>The fact you had to type up paragraph after paragraph to defend a mid masher that's just a reskin of a masher no one has cared about since the 90s "BUT WITH BAP" is sad. The fact that you can't even admit that you're full of shit is the only sad thing about this whole conversation. There's no need for a grown adult to project fake moral superiority on a website like this, let alone caring about shit that wasn't made to appeal to him. You are not only retarded, but a faggot as well (literally and figuratively).>People who actually play video games, let alone fighting games, do not play them just to stare at a screen and jack offThen explain why DoA , Nier: Automata, Tomb Raider (before they de-sexualized Lara) or that new Stellar Blade game exists, let alone the popularity of the first two franchises. Plus, it's still a game. You kinda have to play it with two hands to have fun.You seem like an insufferable cunt in real life just based on the way you act over the concept that men like hot women in real life and in their media, which isn't even unique to video games (see pic related). I honestly can't see a prudish cunt like you has any friends seeing how you don't understand the concept of fun or living and let live over trivial bullshit like hot chicks in video games.>>10921030Thank you. It's just entertainment to see hot chicks in vidya. There's nothing wrong with looking at attractive women in a video game and being amused by them while you are playing.
>>10895281you forgot>3d
>>10921035>I just like titillating media okay?That's nice.
>>10921035>Then explain why DoA , Nier: Automata, Tomb Raider (before they de-sexualized Lara) or that new Stellar Blade game exists, let alone the popularity of the first two franchisesAaand you already lost
Lots of seething segacucks here, there is a reason why everyone forgot about vf the moment tekken come out>>10896136Pretty much this, like with everything, sega won the race to 3d but couldn't stay on first place
>>>10920010Maybe, but holds aren't really an important factor when it comes to winning when you watch competitive play.>>10920857>its pretty intuitive to block while moving backwards.But that just makes it so you don't have to worry much when backdashing, because there's not much of a penalty when you apply it wrong. In the words of Arslan Ash, this just makes it so that Tekken became all about "backdash, backdash, poke".
What is it about VF threads that seems to attract the dumbest tekken trolls?
VF shills are far dumber and way too arrogant
>>10921319>>10921706Now kiss.
>>10921171No wonder they're so cocky. All they have is "it made an impact". Not enough of an impact for people to actually touch that slop
VF was always bad, and its shills are just contrarians and gaming hipsters who want to like the unpopular thing (or Sega Sadturd superfans who still use VF to cope to this day). The only good thing you can say about it was that it was the first 3d fighter. But who cares? That's the direction things were going anyway and VF's existence didn't really influence anything. Well, I guess it might have influenced Tekken on what NOT to do (ring outs and moon physics). In the end, this series just never became part of the zeitgeist at all because of Tekken.
>>10921803>That's the direction things were going anywayzoooooooooooom
>>10921810Yeah dude if Virtua Fighter never came out we'd all still have nothing but 2D fighters to this day. Are you also one of those goobers who claim that heavy metal wouldn't exist without The Beatles?
>>10921016>BAPyou use twitter too much
>>10895281It was the fulfillment of a promise: 3D fighting; virtual fighters. Maybe it was like when I first saw Battle Arena Toshinden -- 3D!
>>10921810Tekken was in development at the same time as VF
>>10921803Well technically vf did uneven terrain before tekken 4 copied it (for some reason), and they also did the snow effects seen in tekken 6 on vf4 back on the ps2. Theres also tekken dark resurrections dojo mode which was also taken from vf4 quest mode. Vf also did the character customization before tekken. Virtua Fighter has always been very influential to Tekken.
>>10921862Tekken died after Tag so your points are irrelevant
>>10921867>moving the goal post
I was a tekken fanatic for years. I don't play much at all these days, and when I do it's usually 2D stuff...but... About 6 months ago I took the time to learn virtua fighter, spent a ton of time in the tutorial and in training. It's super deep, way deeper than tekken, and like someone else said in this thread once you "git gud" which I am not; the game flows. It no longer feels stiff and works well. The problem is it's too deep for the average player, and it's also too deep for the casual watcher. Watching high level VF and understanding what's going on is harder to do, I'm not trying to sound pretentious because I don't have a horse in the race but virtua fighter is basically like the wine snob of video games or some vintage Bordeaux, and tekken is like some really good boxed wine. Off putting comparison aside I really like both the games, aesthetically tekken has kind of sucked since 2 and 4, I get what it's trying to do but just doesn't do it well. Virtua fighter is pretty bad as well the first few games had a thing it achieved well, but the newer games are soulless.I think people should put the time into virtual fighter before they dismiss it, I think most will realize how shallow most other games are by comparison, the real question that presents itself after the fact is whether or not you're going to want to play something that's totally in a league of its own.
>>10921859Source?How could Tekken have been in development at the same time as VF when Namco poached Seiichi Ichi from Sega after they shipped VF1? Besides, the timeline doesn’t match up at all. Tekken was obviously a response to VF.>Tekken was not originally conceived as a fighting game. The project began as an internal Namco test case for animating 3D character models, and eventually incorporated texture mapping similar to that found in Namco's 1993 racing game Ridge Racer.[3] In 1994, Namco acquired developers from longtime competitor Sega, which had recently created the first 3D fighting game with 1993's Virtua Fighter.
>>10921803Ring outs are good. Soulcalibur also has them. They force you to engage with your opponent and space properly instead of like in Tekken where you can just backdash all day. At the end of the day, Tekken is mostly popular because it's probably the most forgiving 3D fighting game, whereas in other 3D fighters you can't just easily escape mixups and throws.
>>10921924You answered your own question, dumb mutt. If the game started out as an internal test case for 3d animation, then that part could have been what they were working on, while VF1 was still under development.
>>10921931>Ring outs are good.#JustScrubThings
>>10921931>you can't just easily escape mixups and throws.pretty sure webms posted show the exact opposite
>>10921943>that part could have been what they were working onAnon he said "Tekken was not originally conceived as a fighting game" they probably weren't working on fighting animations.
>>10921961I mean saying it's easy to escape throws in Tekken isn't entirely honest. The problem with Tekken is that once you've done the work, it IS possible to reliably break every throw in the game pretty much every time, or at least reliably enough that you almost never see throws at the highest level of play.Meanwhile in the latest VF, it's EXTREMELY easy to escape throws, execution-wise. You just hold P+G and either forward, back, or no direction, and if you're grabbed at any point while holding those buttons with the throw that matches your direction, you'll escape it. It turns throw escapes into 100% a mind game rather than some shit where you have to memorize break directions and timings for every character in the game just to completely erase throws from the game.
>>10921945It's scrubs that hate things like throws, mixups ringouts etc. tho
>>10921943Ah, you have brain damage. Oh well. It’s too bad you’re still capable of typing.
>>10921905I had a really rewarding experience with VF as well.
>>10921862VF did uneven terrain with VF3 but only DoA since 2 did it well, meanwhile Tekken 4 fuck it all up
>>10921905>once you "git gud" which I am not; the game flows. It no longer feels stiff and works well. The problem is it's too deep for the average player, and it's also too deep for the casual watcher. Watching high level VF and understanding what's going on is harder to doits not necessarily about "feeling" stiff to control. its literally stiff to look at. you can watch evo grand finals and it looks like shit. i dont care how deep you think it is or how difficult it is to master all of the aspects of play/characters. it is a stiff and staccato game at all levels. "you just dont know whats going on and how complicated what they're doing is" is not an argument. even if mentally there are enough processes going on simultaneously that it smooths over the playing experience, its still visually stiff and dull.
>>10896140
>>10922212>its still visually stiff and dull.Just to give us a little more information on your tastes, what's a 3D fighting game you consider to flow well and be visually interesting?
>>10921968I'm not 100% sure but when buffering multiple throw escapes the engine only accepts up to two directional inputs on top of the neutral doesn't it (so 3 escapes total)? So you can't cover all the possible directions, I might be wrong though.
>>10921319Have you seen the Tekken fanbase in the past 6 or so years? Somehow they're the most fragile and insecure community in esports. They cycle between hating their game and glazing Namco. I think streaming culture really fucked them up. Only Guilty Gear surpasses them in "Do you actually actively play your game? Well no, but..."Tekken 7 was my first fighting game but the people were utterly insufferable.>>10921803Ring outs are by far the best comeback mechanic, Aris likes them as part of Soulcalibur and he's less of a scrub than anyone ITT >>10921945. Even DoA's danger zones are closer to ring outs than just walls as they can add comically significant damage and are defining features of stages so you have to be very considerate of them.
>>10922494Do you mean in Tekken or VF? In VF5:FS you can only input a single throw escape, but in 5 and 5R you could input as many different directions as you wanted because there were like 6 different throw escape directions. You had to time it in those, though. That throw escape simplification was like the biggest change they added in FS I think. Can't remember if the bounding/juggle garbage was in R or not.
>>10922748it's funny because the complete Throw OS is even in the tutorial of VF4sega really had this shit figured out and it's just now people are starting to catch up to it
>>10922748VF.Interesting that it was simplified for FS to make throws stronger. Were players escaping too much in 5 and 5R? It seemed as though throws were still a strong offensive option even in top level play of VF4, (which had featured multiple throw escape buffering too iirc) and its variants.>>10922763Yeah, that tutorial in Evo was something else.
>>10922864I don't think it was about changing their strength so much as it was getting rid of a huuuge obnoxious execution barrier, since high level players were able to input so many throw escapes but newer players couldn't break throws at all.
>>10922469tekken is certainly better. i feel soul caliber is smoother, but the sword thing and rhythm of the fight made me not that interested. also to be clear, i dont even really like 2d fighters that much, but i would put most of them above virtua fighter too. however, things that have 100-0 combos (i think marvel vs capcom has a bunch of that?) are fucking retarded.however, general opinions dont account for much. vf is OBJECTIVELY stiff, and you can just watch it to see it.
>>10923245>you can just watch it to see it.I've played it and watched it, it looks a lot better to me than Tekken. "Objective" isn't just a term you attach to something to make it stronger, it means it can be measured. So if it's not just your opinion, tell me exactly how stiff it is, exactly how stiff Tekken is, and the units and device you're using to measure it.
>>10923261neutral animations, basic movement animations, and recovery animations are sluggish. animations mid string for when a character changes which foot is forward are often sluggish. moves and especially throws are often extremely dull. meanwhile, tekken has very snappy animations with a lot of visceral strength (and i fully admit thats its not every move or every character. nina and anna are prime offenders of shitty choreography to me). you can see it in the webms posted above. you can see it if you watch evo grand finals matches. tekken is consistently smoother and snappier than vf. that doesnt mean "vf doesnt have combos". that doesnt mean "vf doesnt have heated exchanges or hype moments". it just means that vf is consistently "less than" and outclassed.
>>10923318>tekken is consistently smoother and snappier than vf.In your opinion. I think most people in the world would disagree with you.
>>10923331then i accept your concession that you are willfully ignorant and unable to do an actual comparative analysis, least of all without your preconceived bias. also point of fact, nobody gives a fuck about vf, and tekken endures through the years, currently enjoying the height of it's popularity and selling millions. so, clearly its doing SOMETHING better and more appealing to most people.
>>10923363>IT'S MORE POPULAR!All Tekken fans can say. It's not true of any other piece of media, but when it comes to Tekken it's suddenly fact. Go reflect on yourself.
>>10922960Damn, so they dumbed it down.No sir, i don't like it.5 seems to be a bit of a mixed bag in that regard.
>>10923331>>10923373"Most people" have never heard of Virtua Fighter or think of it as just "that minigame in Yakuza that's a parody of Street Fighter"
>>10923373i dont like taylor swift, but im not narcissistic enough to say "i think most people would find her appalling". meanwhile, vf had its shot and nobody gave a shit, but tekken is still going strong. like, you quite literally dont have an argument. you want to try and talk about "measurable metrics" but then deliberately ignore the most readily factual one. you're just a mindless, contrarian troll.
I have no desire to ever play another tekken
>>10923437I haven't played Yakuza, sounds cool though.
>>10923525>vf had its shot and nobody gave a shitVF's historical importance and the fact it is still glazed to this day by Harada himself and Team Ninja nevermind the fact that Beat Tribe Cup can go on hiatus from COVID-19 and return full swing after 4 years show people still give a shit. We're talking about a game whose latest entry's first version is from 2006, nearly 20 years ago and has never had a robust platform or online experience that actually made it a competitive experience in today's consumer market yet people still find love for it especially among other 3D fighting game players.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAJx8RQZUDU>>10923437It's actually criminal how Sega locks so many classic games inside Yakuza, largely a userbase that will never actually appreciate them.
>>10923420They didn't dumb it down, the mindgames are the same. They just lowered the execution requirements because nobody liked having to input 5 throw escapes per second every time you did ETEG. People already weren't thinking about the actual timing much anyway because you would just input them during OS's, it was just making evades functionally a much clunkier input.
bros teishitsu dantai is actually hard wtfi have to press my button so lightly and put my hand in a weird stance to do so
>>10895281Try playing it on something other than a raspberry pi 1
>>10924147>muh historical importance!>muh influence!>tekken wouldnt BE without vf!>muh nostalgia!literally all of those are non-arguments. none of that undoes the current state of vf.>but some small bunch of nips still play it out of autistic loyalty!yeah, and? the entire west couldnt give a shit and no company wants to make a new one for consoles because nobody wants to buy it.>20 years!and people still have tournaments for old street fighter entries and smash bros melee. everything has SOME small dedicated autist fanbase, no matter how new, old, or shitty. you literally have ZERO argument because you're trying to deny FACTS.
>>10924540It's not about nostalgia, I was saying even NEW PLAYERS who give VF a serious try unlike you come out understanding and appreciating the game, if not outright loving it.The 20 years is about how old VF is without a NEW release to market and sell. We're playing an essentially 20 year old game BECAUSE that's the newest one available. VF6 has not even been formally announced yet, what else are VF players going to eat?
>>10924770>what else are VF players going to eat?they can eat shit because its basically a dead franchise, lol.
>>10924370I think its pretty funny how Sega made the face of VF the hardest character to pick up.Strange aswell that though Japanese in name and sporting a Gi he's a practioner of some obscure chinese martial art.Still, a good Akira player is something else considering the barrier of entry.>>10924185I dunno man, part of me likes the old system but i can understand how it would negate the throw game too much if it was executed perfectly, every time. I also get how it would be too spammy for most.Tricky issue to balance, for sure; streamlining mechanics for the newer players vs lowering the skill ceiling in general. Sega probably made the right call.
>>10925517>it would negate the throw game too much if it was executed perfectlyIn the end it didn't change the game at the high level that much. You could input a lot of throw escapes before, but you could never get EVERY direction. I really hope they keep it in 6 if they make it, but they 100% need to ditch the bounding. Juggles in FS are way too damaging and they look really stupid.
>>10925603Bounding is where you combo after the opponent bounces off the floor innit?Agreed its pretty stupid but zoom zooms need those big damage combo's don't they?
>>10925746I can't remember for sure if that's the exact term, but I think it's something they took from Tekken. There are certain moves that'll like...take them out of the juggle state and put them in some new animation where they're standing up but reeling, and it lets you start another juggle and keep the combo going. Stuff like Lau's 46K+G.
The VF slander in this thread makes me feel bad because I like VF! My favorite part is the sidestepping functioning like a parry.
>>10921063>>10921137Cope. Fanservicechads keep on winning
>>10926170If you really have to call yourself a chad you already lost. Look at the shills defending VF for nothing else but the memberberries, completely ignoring how slow and clunky it is
>>10925757Yeah nah, I'm not familiar with it. Definitely agree that combo damage is too high, in FS i can see plenty of combo's that do 50%. Way too much imo.
>>10908248Damn near every fighting game has the same high-mid-low system, are there some specific nuances shared between VF and Tekken? Also I looked it up and was surprised this wasn't a shitpost, Tekken 1 & 2 do actually share many of the same staff that made VF1, notably director/game designer Seiichi Ishii.
>>10921016Sexy lore and worldbuilding is more fulfilling than porn and jacking off. There's a 4chan post I can't find rn that describes this beautifully, the phenomenon of "Why do coomers want their horny fetishes in everything they make and consume?" It helps explain why titillating female characters are more than just titillating. There's a strange deeper fulfillment in their existence. t. faggot so you can't say I'm just horny for girls that kick high. :V
>>10921137Aaaand this game is ruined AAAAAND we're moving on AAAAND this is awkward AAAAAND backing away slowly.>>10926235VF4 is fun on Flycast. I'm really bad at it but it's fun. It's the last "slow" VF game before they started speeding up the animations and pumping up the aggressive combos to match other modern fighting games. I detest modern power creep and speed creep. Making everything hit hard and fast doesn't make a good game. Remember Nickolodeon All Stars or whatever? It's a bad game for many reasons, but it's made *way* worse by the fact that every single character is a fast rushdown fighter with nearly the same moves between all of them. It is the pinnacle of slop, everything wrong with modern fighting in one package.
imagine being a sega. imagine spending 30 years having to pretend to like sonic AND virtua fighter. wew
I wonder how many times that one anon has samefagged about VF being slow. We will never know
>>10926235>If you really have to call yourself a chad you already lost.Again that's called coping. There's nothing wrong with calling like it is, especially when you have ample opportunities to do whatever you are talking about (like in this case, indulging in fanservice). Only a sore loser or someone coping would say otherwise.
>>10926985I imagine, like many of the Tekken content creators when VF5US came out, they went online without bothering to learn the game, got smoked and said VF is bad because *excuse*.
>>10926998Declaring victory during a conversation is coping, correct. You act like titillating content being found almost anywhere from graffiti to pulp fiction to pornography somehow makes titillating content a defining quality of refined taste. The purpose of titillating content is for accessibility, to grab the attention of your dumb monkey brain.
>>10926884There are discord zoomers in /vg/writing slogans about how VF is "goated frfr nocap bruh scrimblo fighter" after watching a video essay from some FGC talking head who doesn't even play VF
>>10927496Either that or it's shills trying way too hard to pander to a demographic that will go right back to SF6 and Tekken 8
>>10927485>Declaring victory during a conversation is copingNot when the person I am arguing against is going to such pseudo-intellectual lengths to justify why they hate something most people don't care about or actively like. That's called coping with the fact that you are getting butthurt over things you should ignore if you don't like it or get with the program.
>>10924370What game/s is this move in?
>>10927565All of them since VF2
>>10927416I think the most important conclusion we could draw from that episode was that Tekken players really don't play any other fighting games, because they complained about how you had to break throws even though the way VF does it is how every other fighting games does it.
>>10927507>shills getting those huge VF endorsement bux
>>10927631Is it listed on the games manual or it's like a secret?
>>10927559It's called an opinion, declaring yourself the super kewl chadliest victor for having one indicates extreme insecurity. Take your own advice and ignore things that upset you, since you're apparently incapable of discussing your own opinion.
>>10927668>It's called an opinionYeah, a stupid opinion that should be ignored and kept to yourself. Let's keep it that way.
>>10927676We just agreed; I was referring to your opinion, nice reading comprehension bucko
>>10927687I was actually talking about your retarded opinion that normal heterosexual male sexuality in a predominately male hobby is a bad thing. Only a sheltered retard would think that. Also, being a snarky faggot on the Internet belongs on Reddit, not here you turd. I unironically think you are a woman based on your snarkiness, your lack of actual rational thought and just general bitchiness.
>>10927706>sexualizing nonsexual hobbies is a good thing, no I'm not a sex addictSure. Something tells me you really enjoy playing the girls which I'm sure you will insist is because you just like looking at them. Sure...
>>10927734>sexualizing nonsexual hobbies is a good thing, no I'm not a sex addict>What are cheerleaders?>What are sports magazines (with hot babes on the front)?Hell, I've even seen Japanese anime magazines with hot chicks on the front. You are just a prudish loser that can't understand the difference between healthy and overindulgent male sexuality. That's not my fault.Again, only a woman or a zoomer gets this neurotic about fanservice and calls it pornographic when there isn't even any nudity in it. If you are a man, you are pathetic to get this worked up over other people looking at hot chicks, real or otherwise. This legitimate low testosterone behavior.
>>10927663I've just checked the manual and the move isn't listed.I must have made a mistake, I am sorry anon.
>>10927753Meant to post this but same difference: men like hot women and there's nothing wrong with that.
>>10927753>Caring about cheerleaders more than the game they're cheering at>Caring about a cover girl more than the words a magazine is mostly comprised of>Preferring sexual content in your media to be worth your whileI take it you have induced hypersexuality because you aren't getting any and need some kind of outlet. Whatever you do, don't address this non-issue. Don't even try to think about the implications of you considering hypersexuality to be the status quo.Anyways, I didn't call fanservice pornographic and you're becoming increasingly belligerent while oversimplifying the conversation which only further proves my assertion of your insecurity. >>10927784It's quite clear you were not here to have a discussion, you were here to proceletyze. Feel free to explain how constantly rewarding primal instincts can only ever be good for you and never ever results in addiction.
>>10924370back when I was good at the command I used to think of my fingers as being on a see-saw. I thought of my finger pushing down K as something that caused the finger on G to lift up. It's hard to explain but for some reason visualizing that got me pretty consistent with it. It's not a super strong move in FS though, at least.
>>10927863Again, this is just cope from a faggot or a woman. I like hot women, boobs and firm butts. I also like video games. Combining both of those things only makes an already cool thing cooler. No need to go into a tumbrina-esque mental breakdown over nothing and play the pseud armchair psychologist. If you want to be an annoying faggot that hates fun shit, go to >>>/v/ or >>>/r/eddit. You sound like the shut-in, hyper-puritan type that had no friends growing up and doesn't even know how to enjoy themselves judging by your pedantic reaction to finding out most people don't mind mild to moderate amounts of TnA in their media.Like I said, it's not my fault you're either a lame faggot or a joyless bitch.
>>10927863>It's quite clear you were not here to have a discussion, you were here to proceletyze.What a hypocrite.What you're saying is that since vegetables are healthier and too much dessert can kill you, you have no cause to complain if dessert was completely removed from meals. Only a puritan thinks like this.
>>10927658Are you the one forcing the phrase "scrimblo fighter" in /vg/'s /tekgen/ any time VF is mentioned?
What the fuck is a scrimblo anyway?Also sad to know sony fans still find a way to shitpost legendary IPs like Virtua Fighter.
>>10928168>>10928174fr I've been found out fr
>>10927991>I just like titillating media, okay?As you just observed, it's less compelling when you repeat yourself.>>10928037If you need sugar with every meal, you have a sugar addiction.
>>10927668 >>10927734 >>10927863Upvoted for epic atheismWhy are retardittors so fucking wordy and unintelligent? It's obnoxious. Nobody likes you, you fucking queer. Leave.
>>10929028I'm not convincing you of anything nor am I trying to. I'm stating an objective fact that you are a puritan if you think that you porn and very basic fanservice are comparable past being erotic.>If you need sugar with every meal, you have a sugar addiction.Again, this is retarded. It's like saying having a dash of sugar in your food once in a while or once every week or a moderate but reasonable amount in the same time interval is the same thing as an assload of sugar in every single thing you consume. That's why you're full of shit and everyone can see you for the puritanical niggerfaggot you are: you are unable to process that maybe people may want to look at attractive women in their video games and have a highly unreasonable opinion that even the slightest sight of an attractive woman and her physical assets (IRL or in video games) makes them a porn addict. No one mentally healthy even begins to think that. Only extremely sexually repressed religious nuts and retarded feminists that hate men because of unresolved trauma with the men in their lives actually think that and they end up cracking because such a thought process is self-defeating and bound to cause friction in their personal lives in one way or another. You should really understand the concept of moderation and not going overboard before you go on a reddit tier rant about how admiring Mai Shiranui's ass and boobies is pornographic behavior. You just are sexually repressed and mentally unwell as a result if you think that's not the norm for how men treat to most women's form. And rather naive to boot.
